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Jeff's Original Story

The following letter was sent by an anonymous internetman to Joyce Murphy over at Beyond Boundaries. The link to her site is on the previous page. This whole dealie belongs to her, and I have reproduced it here only because I am afraid of links on the internet going stale, and you can't really get, you know, the full intensity of my interpretation of the story without reading the original. So, I hope I've made it clear to any lawyers reading this that the letter's not mine, and I am reproducing it here without changing it in anyway re: grammar, format, etc just for educational purposes. Anyway, Enjoy!

Dear Beyond Boundaries, Joyce Murphy, I don't know where to begin. I can't explain all of that night's events without giving you some of the events leading to that night. Okay. It's 82 - 83? It was one of those 2. I have had many events in my life since the time this happened. So the year is ? but it was either 82 or 83. Anyhow I have had several stepdad's. In 1977 my second stepfather and my mother moved us to Ulysses Kansas. I was 12 years old at the time. A few months after we moved there they split up. We went for too long with being beat on by him. Both he and she drank. But my mother was a great mother. She did the best with what little education she had and made sure I had warm meals, decent clothes, and a warm bed and someone to come home to. In that same year she met my next and last stepfather Joseph Daniel, a very good man. He and my mother drank quite often but they were good together - no arguing or fighting and I didn't get bashed either. He was an old farmer and rancher. We moved to his farm in 1978. Joe taught me about tractors, combines, building fence, cattle, grain, hogs, horses and even bought me my first shotgun - a Savage Stevens 4.10 single shot. He and Grampa Daniel helped with my first car. Gave me my first real paying job. Anyway about 6 months after we moved to the farm and I had settled in at Simpson Jr. High School I was sitting in the livingroom with Joe and Mom was in the kitchen cleaning up the dishes and throwing scraps out to the dogs. I had an older dog which was about 3.4r spit and two others that were about 1/2 each pit bull. The house was old. It had been moved from a town which no longer exists in southern Kansas. Anyway it was old and moved to its present location in 1900 something. It was made in the 1800's. It was full of square nails and really run down. But it was homey - I loved it and so did Mom. She wouldn't let Joe build a new home. Anyway, she was throwing out the scraps when I heard her yell for me to come here. Well, I looked out straight toward the highway. It was due west of the back door 3/4 of a mile away. I looked up at about 6000 ft. above the highway to a light which resembled a star to me. But that's all I thought it was. Mom goes watch that light and it will move. I told her she was crazy. She said watch it. So I did. Before long a tractor trailer rig came over the hill from toward Johnson, Kansas, from the south. The light came down to about 400 ft. above the truck and followed it for about a mile and rose back toward the place it had been. I called Joe to come see. He just looked up and said that it had been there for years and went back to the livingroom. Now he went about this like it was nothing. I couldn't believe it at first but that's how I became eventually. This light did this for nearly 3 to 4 months at a time every year up until my leaving home in 1985 for the marines. Now my only encounters before this was a cousin who told me that one chased her on a road in Union Kansas and chased her to town. She was at one time a drug case so I paid no attention to it and actually ? thought about UFOs as lights in our skies in my case or any place else at all. I didn't believe and had no interest. Just a small curiosity. Anyway I had a friend named Charlie. Charlie quit school and worked at the theater in Simpson, Kansas. He is younger then I but I liked him. He wore suits, he loved suits - thought he was a businessman which was okay. He borrowed his grandfather's car to go to Garden City Kansas one time. So we took his Grampa with us - a very nice man. I like him a lot. But strange. We were going there so Charlie could buy some suits - he loved his suits. Anyway we passed an open area and Frank Sloan said there was some towers that stood there at one time. He retired from the Natural Gas plant. These towers had to keep 2 guys in each "hen house" on the top at a time. I don't know why. He said one would sleep while the other kept watch and did the duty and they would trade off. Frank said one night while watching a light came down from the sky and hovered around between each tower and that he could see the people inside. He waved at them and they waved back. We laughed at him and told him he was drunk. Because at one time many years before I had heard he was a drinker. I wish, Mrs. Murphy, I had never laughed at that old man because several years and later after his death the man helped me a great deal. We would be bound in a special way because of our experiences. Anyhow this was the extent of my UFO interest. After about 2 years living at Joe's I moved from my spot on the back porch to a large spare bedroom. I stayed in a curtained off area on the backporch and stayed secluded there. It was my favorite spot or room. I showed signs I was older and needed a room with a door and space. I was an avid reader of Marvel comics. I had 3 comics I liked best - Conar, Spikeman, and Hulk. I had the very first of all and from the time they were printed I soon discovered I had a talent for drawing and sent in my works to Star Lee the publisher of Marvel. He said I had the ability but not the educational background required to become an artist for Marvel. I have a step brother Keith. Keith gave me a very large drawing board he got from some building he worked on. He did carpentry. This board hooked to my wall and pulled out to where I needed it for drawing. The favorite thing for me was to stay up til nearly 2:30 in the morning and draw and listen to music. I've always been a fan of big band music. Glenn Miller, Tommy Dorsey, Jimmy Dorsey, Harry James, etc. I spent my evenings after chores reading, hunting, running, boxing. Worked out on heavy bag and my karate. I didn't hardly ever go out with the guys getting drunk chasing the girls. I was more reclusive. I liked drawing and being alone. One night while waiting for my big band show to come on I was listening to WLS out of Chicago which I would always do. They were having a show on back like today’s talk shows. They would pick a subject, get a leading authority on the subject and have people call in much like Art Bell's show. Anyway I usually listened because people would call and arguments would spring up and it was like Radio Geraldo! I liked to hear them get really upset. I just drew pictures while I listened. Well on this night the subject was GSW Ground Saucer Watch and people were calling in like " from Nebraska, Oklahoma, Kansas, Colorado, and all over the midwest. Right then the gentleman from GSW said we were in the middle of a UFO flap. I walked to the backporch and looked out. It was about 1 am. My folks were asleep. I gave a quick glance and went back to my room to draw. I had a window but only one, and it was regular like in width, but it was about 6 inches from the floor and about 6 inches at the top from the ceiling - a really tall window. My ceiling was about 6'6" - not a tall one. I was drawing again and WLS's show went off the air and my big band show on another station was about to come on when suddenly my dog started barking and raising hell. I didn't want my folks to wake up from all of this so I opened the window to yell a little at them. Both dogs were backing toward the window with tails between their legs. This shocked me right off because the old dog, who's name was Jim, like my own, was obviously scared to death. This dog did not like cars. He would attack anyone who drove up in our driveway. A man would be better off to walk up in our yard as to drive up. He was never afraid of animals either. He had killed 3 coyotes in a pack one night when they attempted to get our chickens. This puzzled me a bunch. Well when I looked out I couldn't see because my light was bright and above and behind me. So I pulled the string and shut it off, lifted the window and looked out again. I didn't see anything that time but it was light out because of the moon. They dogs were backing up again and before I knew it they came right through my window screen. I knew my Mom would kill me. So I would pick one up and toss it out and then the other would go under the bed. When I would pull him out the other one would come back through the window. My folks didn't like dogs in the house. So it was during this I noticed movement in the sky. I looked up and coming from the west in the sky at what was about 500 ft up was what looked like 3 flying skyscrapers. They were huge and the lights were all over them but not bright. You could see the outlines of the things. The moon was bright as I said so the front of these things could be seen. Black and gray and even white were what I could see. There may have been more because my window faced south. They came from the west. There could have been a couple more above my house and to the West. I didn't check. It was looking at this through the few trees we had when all of a sudden the whole area was flooded in light. Real light like infrared. All space and air was red and all objects were black. I became scared. I closed the window and pulled the curtains off into the middle of my bed like a little kid. Suddenly my light came on in the room and I became numb. I couldn't move except my head. That's when I heard the backporch door open and a noise of someone going through the porch to the bathroom which led to my room. I saw the door open and a man came running in. He was wearing a blue gray jumpsuit and he was about 5'10" to 6 ft tall, had black or dark brown short hair like they give you in the military. He was of medium build, weight of 160 to 180 lbs. but very athletic from the looks of him and he was wearing black lace up combat boots that were bloused. He came to the bed and grabbed me by the shoulders and lifted me up and yelled help me kid - you've got to help me. I couldn't talk. I couldn't move. My whole body was numb. He kept saying you've got to help me kid. I remember he let go of me. I fell back. He looked toward the bathroom. There was a window in it to the southside - You could easily see it from the doorway of my room. He looked back at me and said - My God, they're coming. They are here. I couldn't do anything. I just couldn't move. He was at the foot of my bed. Then a bright light, a really bright yellow light came through my wall. My closet was on the southside, had no door and was about 1 ft out of the wall. This light came right through the middle of the closet wall and was extremely bright. The man was standing at the foot of my bed. He said they're here! And two tall figures walked out of the light through my wall. They were extremely skinny and tall. They were nearly 6'6i" which was about the height of my ceiling. I really couldn't see them because of the light. Then two figures came through the bathroom direction. As I said the bathroom door was still open. One was tall but the first one couldn't have been 5'4" tall and he was the leader. I looked at the man and he was trying to back away. The one in back of the shorter one aimed something metal like a rifle in a way at the man a light "yellow" came out in a straight line and hit the man straight in the face and he fell on his back at the foot and side of my bed. I strained as hard as I could to see the man and managed to get myself lifted up enough to peer over into his fact or should I say what was left of his face. I looked at a man with the skin burned away from his face and bloody and his eyes looked like two white eyeballs. I've only seen something like this before. I will tell you about it when I explain this. I was instantly angry and sick and I tried to make a move toward them but couldn't. I wanted to kill them. Then I got scared because I now got my first real glance at them. The 3 tall ones were of a taller variety - really skinny. My arms at the time would have made legs on any of them and they were gray. The skin was smooth. You know how a lizard looks - the ones that will run down a path or on a fence post when you walk up and scare them? Well anyway that's exactly what the skin was like. They had on gray skin tight suits like Spandex with hoods but the hoods didn't cover the neck. I mean the front, of the neck. I know that doesn't make sense but it covered the back of the neck and the sides but not the front of the neck. I noticed the eyes being like a cat, the pupils were vertical - not round and the eyes were set like our own and not big round eyes like many describe. I had the eyes at gray but the little one did something which really gave me a chance to see them. I was trying to look back to where the man was because the little one made a motion and two of the tall ones went to him and picked him up and carried him right back through the wall through the light. I noticed something - there was no light as they passed from one side or the other as long as they were on one side or the other the light was gone and when they started through the wall the light was instantly there. Now the little one walked from the doorway to me and touched my face on the right side of my nose and turned my head to face him. I was only 3 ft from his face because he bent down slightly. I remember being so scared. It still scares me. I looked him in the eyes and noticed they were real and gray and the pupils dark. He had no real nose to speak of. It was more like a skull but the holes were wider apart and his mouth a slit. I never saw ears but there were bumps under the hood to indicate something was there. I know he peered into my eyes and he said something. I don't know or I can't remember what was said but he didn't say it with words but I heard a voice and it seemed in my head. And he was serious - very serious. Many abductees tell of big eyes, expressionless. Not this one. His eyes were angry after he said whatever it was and he looked at me for a few seconds and walked to the closet. Only one of the tall ones was there. He turned and went into the light which suddenly appeared and went out. The little one stood at the front, of my closet and turned back to look at me. He stood for 10- to 15 seconds looking and turned to walk into the light. When he left a few minutes later my light went out. I couldn't move for a long time. I know at least an hour. When I could move I jumped up, shut my bedroom door, and jumped back into bed and went into shock because I trembled and shook for 2 hours. I didn't go to sleep that night or for 2 or 3 days. Body fatigue finally made me sleep. Something I did not notice that I didn't tell you. On the short one's chest was an emblem - a chevron if you like of a snake with wings and snakeslit eyes - no legs or arms - just wings. I kid you not. I never saw their feet. - Just the hands which had 4 digits - not 5 like ours own. I was so scared I remember when it was happening I kept saying in my head my folks will get up - my folks will wake up. They never did. I was awake when my mom got up to wake me for school. I didn't go. In fact I missed 2 weeks of school. I became feverish, sweaty, itchy, had a rash, and my throat was dry. I couldn't hardly drink much less eat. My mom brought me my meals. I know how she felt about dogs. I put one out - the young one - but the old one stayed in the room with me. I would put him outside when my mom brought my meals. When she left I opened the window and made him come in. I should have known that night something was wrong when "Jim" and "Sam", my dogs, came in. These dogs would never come in the house. We couldn't force them in. They were more scared of the 6 ft 180 lb redheaded woman I called Mother than anything. She could put the fear in you and she did these dogs. but these "creatures" scared them more. For a long time I was mad at my folks. I almost hated them for not waking up. but later I got the feeling they couldn't and even if they had what would have happened to them? The same as the man? I don't know. Now I don't have any physical evidence except that when the short one touched me later on I became aware of a swelling in the muscle by my nose and above my mouth. Which eventually started a swelling about 2 years ago to a knot in the roof of my mouth - a very hard knot that made it hard to talk. And the pressure became unbearable. In 1992 my wife and I split up. Bob Duke was the first man I called Dad. My mother got with him when I was 6 months old. I call him and Joe my Dads. They were both good to me. My real father I hardly knew and he never like me. He thought I was someone else's. Anyway I was at his farm here outside Mossy Valley Missouri and I was helping him with his cattle. He bought several syringes. So I borrowed a new one and poked this knot and drained it. It filled the needle several times before it went down and left a depressions. I realized I have a hold in the roof of my mouth through the bone the size of a nickel. In the same area as where I was touched I will drain this knot every 2 months or so. Gross as it seems I've never had it tested. I don't want to. And the only reason I never went to a doctor is because I've never been able to afford one. Anyway when the incident took place and I was able to go back to school I didn't tell anyone. Only one person knew. My mom. I remember telling her one day and all I got was this blank stupid look. She never said anything. I went to the school library and read every book I could on the subject of UFOs and there were few. My first book was on project Blue Book With Dr. J. Allen Hynek. I feel close to him because of his open mindedness and honest sincere search for the truth without being a hardnose ass against the people he talked to. Sorry for the cuss words but I come from an area where it's a second language and I sometimes forget myself. So forgive me please. Anyway the books were few. I later joined the marines in 1984. My mom died in 1985 of cancer which tore my world apart and I went on full active alert in 1985 on November 11, the corps birthday. However in late December I was hurt badly with partial paralyzation and sent home. I drank heavy, lost my finances to some guy, and ended up in St. Louis Missouri where I met my wife. We fought a lot and while we were together I began having nightmares of that night when I was a kid. In 1989 December 26th, we fought one too many times so I hitchhiked home to my dad's in Simpson, Kansas. We got into an argument. I went to Simpson, got a job and had no place to stay. Charlie Sloan’s mom Candy, the guy I spoke of earlier told me Frank had died. I was hurt. I was told it I would pack his stuff she would let me stay rent free at his house because she couldn't do it and I would be 2 blocks from my job. So I did it. I always felt as as she said that Frank was an old retired, uneducated one time alcoholic with a good heart. But I was wrong thinking he was not educated. I found he was a geologist with a degree. He would go to certain areas and dig up bones, bowls, arrowheads and give the topographical areas and the kind of minerals found and all that. Anyhow I found out something else. He was a UFO fanatic. He had 2 picture albums. One was full of clippings and news clippings of UFOs through the years. The other was full of his own photos. About 350 to 360 photos he took himself! And of entirely UFOs. Many were nightlights. Some were far off daylight discs but I remember clearly as daylight discs at 100 to 150 feet away and one he wasn't far from being right under it because it had a pattern on the bottom of it. Insert scanned pattern here. This is the pattern Kathy came by and said she was going to throw all of it away. I don't know if she did or not. She thought he was crazy but in fact she's a real nutcase. Extremely eccentric. Anyway further digging around I found he had books and magazines. Erik von Daniken, Vilikowsky, Major Donald Keyhoe, were the authors - all were about UFOs. I found several magazines, Pensec and Second Look,- almost all of which are out of print. I found that Doctor J. Allen Hynek was the President or head editor of Second Look. I kept them. Candy got the albums and whatever became of them I don't know. And as strange as she is there's no telling what she did with them. My ex wife called from Missouri and caused trouble and I ended up being moved and Cand hating me. Anyway my ex wife and I got back together and 2 years later moved to Mossy Valley about 5 months before we broke up. I was always being left with the kids while she ran around and went to her Moms in St. Louis. So anyway I went to the public library and read several books on UFOs they had because I began having the dreams again which is always of the whole event over and over. Here it is 1997 and they don't go away. I read of a woman named Lucas! Mrs. Lucas I found an address and was going to get in touch with her. I wrote a letter telling all that happened to me. My wife came home from running around and while at work she took my letter and opened it. When I got home she laughed at me and told me they would put me out in a nutcase pasture if I sent it. I was hurt and angry. I tried to explain it to her but she was never one you could talk to. I waited 2 months and never sent the letter or got on any phone. I called Evergreen, Illinois, to get in touch with J. Allen Hynek and couldn't reach him. One of the people giving information to Second Look magazine was Lucius Farrish or Parrish and he was from a number in Arkansas. I got in touch with him and he informed me that Dr. Hynek died around 1986. This killed me too. In the year of 1992 my wife and I finally broke up. And now I live in Mason, Missouri. Now the woman I’m with is different from my ex wife and she knows I have this nightmare. Last summer she and I had a very bad experience here. One time last summer the store here where I live was suffering from attempted breakins. Since I live right here the owner gave me a shotgun and I guarded the place at night. 8 to 10 nights in a row people were attempting to get in. Well this made us nervous. After all this was our area. We still stayed up nights. Well he goes to pick up clothes in Texas, goes down and comes back in one fast trip - I went with him. After I got back that very night She and I became sick for 2 weeks - very, very, very sick and lost 2 to 3 days of time. I however remember one oddity during this time. It was 11 pm and Monica got up and went outside. We we're just blanking out on TV - not really watching or enjoying it - just staring. I couldn't even think. I just looked outside and she was walking around. When I looked up and she came back in it was 2 am. There's nothing here - nobody or nothing at all and she doesn't know anyone close. We are on the highway in the middle of nowhere. Monica has never gone outside after dark since the breakins and is scared to even stay in the house at night alone. She didn't remember going outside! She couldn't sleep at all. I couldn't either during the sickness. And some very familiar things came from this sickness. I could not eat, could barely drink, throat was extremely sore, a rash, and had a few widely spaced sores all over my legs and arms, face and back. We've had measles in our lives and chickenpox. Monica and I both had feeling of being watched constantly. I soon got over the being watched feeling. Monica never did and wouldn't eat or sleep. She almost died. She went to a stress unit in West PLains, Missouri. We were arguing because she wouldn't eat. She was talking to people who weren't there. Her Mom took her and her things and as I said put her in a stress unit. While she was gone I went to drinking and two times while drinking I came home to look out toward the North into the woods behind our house and there was a big dull red light. Now I would say it was poachers spotlighting. but not with a red light and not that big. This happened twice but one time we had people hanging out in the parking lot. So the store owner wanted me to start watch again and I did. On one watch I was not drinking, I saw this light again in another area but in the same patch of woods which again triggered the dreams. Well I called and called trying to find some organization which could help me so I wouldn't feel crazy. I couldn't find any. I was looking at a phone book at the store and its 1-800 numbers. I didn't find CAUS or MUFON or GSW Ground Saucerwatch or on any of these pages. Now I found a number for World Space Report - 1-800-622-1992 and spoke to a Joe. He put me off for a month and I finally got a hold of him and he told me of a Ted Bonnett. I did all I could to reach this guy. He is supposed to be a UFO investigator but I asked him to please put me in touch with some organization. He said he would try to help me. Well before I finally got a hold of him I tried one more time to get an organization but couldn't. I called Johnson Space Center in Houston. They hung up on me! I went as far as calling an Air Force base and they put me through to a Major. He says, so you think he was an Air Force Man? I said yes. He said "hold on". About 2 minutes later the phone went dead. I figure he hung up on me. I later got in touch with Ted Bonnett. I explained to him like he asked. He put another man on the phone with me. While I spoke this man said, were you looking at it from a 3rd point of view? - like I was someone else watching me like a dream. I got mad. Well no! I saw it and still see it from one point of view- mine!. I saw it just like you meet someone face to face! And I was awake. I don't know, Mrs. Murphy, I used to be nervous people would find out. But now I don't care. I want to look someone in the face. Someone who's been there. Someone who won't look me in the face like I'm crazy. I want to know when I look them in the eyes they won't think I’m nuts. Look, I’m no nutcase. I didn't drink then and I quit again about 3 months ago. Even though I wasn't bad to begin with. Well I lost Monica there for awhile. Now she's back and she is fine. But as you can tell it's bothering me. I don't even need publicity but if it takes it to reach people who've been there then I will do it. As for Mr. Bonnett I feel he is only interested in my story for a money aspect. Well, I did the drawings of the man and the creatures for him and I will send it to him. But not before I send this to you. I feel I am dealing with a man who isn't what he claims to be. Because if he had any real concern and was an investigator wouldn't he volunteer these organizations’ addresses to me? I don't know. I went from a non-believer to an avid fanatic. I want an answer! Its no longer a question for me of do they exist. I know they do. My question is "What do they want??” Another thing, Mrs. Murphy, I figure I should go ahead and get out in the open. The creature which touched me gave me a very angry look when he turned back at the closet. Very angry. Like he had something against me. Something personal. His face portrayed evil to me. Another point you made on the phone was putting devices in people. Well, if some time after my first experience I was visited again perhaps they did put something in my face or maybe that's how they do it when he touched me. But my point is this. I can't wear jewelry - only silver or gold. not gold plated either . I've got a real nervous reaction to metal. I will swell and scratch from rings or watches. Only silver or gold won't break me out. I wonder if they did put something in me in order to find me again? But anyway if its metal of any sort I may be having a nervous and chemical reaction. I am willing to show the crest and the drawing of it to witnesses and have a few too. but anyway I went out a few months back and bought the movie “Fire in the Sky” about Travis Walton and I was hoping to maybe see some resemblance between this bunch of creatures and my own. I couldn't see it except the noses on them and even the noses on those on the show weren't like any of mine. I even got the Roswell incident and never discovered anything. I heard from Ted Bonnett that Travis Walton was angry at the producers because he never told half of what they put in there and couldn't remember most of what really happened to him. He didn't say anything because of the money from it. But the man, Bonnett he was very angry. About a month ago I remembered that I was listening to WLS the night of the incident and so I tuned in and got Art Bell. I've listened to it every since and that's when I heard you and you sound very honest and nice and not a person to shug people off. So I called you and I'm glad I did. I believe there are people like myself out there and I want to reach them. I want them to feel they aren't crazy either. Now I started to tell you this. Two weeks after my sickness, a month or so from the time of the experience, I was sleeping and felt as though I left my body and went outside. In fact I floated out my window to my folks window. I saw my Mom get up and go through the houser to every room door and knock. I came to and it was my mom checking to see if I was okay. Odd huh? I just figured you should know. I would like your opinion, Mrs. Murphy. Should I send this to Ted Bonnett? I know you don't really want to give an opinion but I would really, really appreciate your view on this. I hope, Mrs. Murphy, that you can help me in someway. I want help and I want an answer from someone for why they did this, what did the man do, what did I do, what was the point in killing him, who was the man, was a man missing at the time from the Air Force, if so why wouldn't they say? I've got questions and no answers. Its causing me to lose sleep not to mention my mind. I'm not a crackpot, Mrs. Murphy. I/m not out for publicity and now however It was in the Spring of 1968 in a small town some thirty miles from Dallas. How I got on or off the craft I do not know...but for the time I was on there I felt I was being given information that I could impart. The next day I hurried to my relative’s home to share this knowledge and they laughed and ridiculed me so I never brought it up to anyone else for years. As a result the images / information were almost lost and became a faint memory.

The craft resembled half of a circle (note from editor - crescent or boomerang shape to UFOlogists) with windows going all the way around. There was a band below the windows. The color was silver or aluminum. The insides had two seats in front of a dashboard and the seats swiveled around. They were high backed and large. On the dashboard there was what appeared to be a television set. It appeared to be showing where they were headed. There was another seat / couch around the backside. I remember talking to several beings on the craft who were “engineers”. I do not remember what they looked like. There were two up front that sat in the swivel chairs and two or three that sat with me on the couch. They explained about the craft. I asked them how they kept from being hit by the other craft because they were always turning around in their swivel chairs to communicate with me and were not watching where they were going. They said the band around the middle of the craft had a magnetic force that kept them from hitting others and that the thing I thought was a television screen was set up with their destination programmed into it and to keep them on track. I was told about the “engine system” but I do not remember or have anything to relate it to. I was shown other craft, some were powered by solar and others were run by something resembling a gyroscope. I’m not afraid of it. I want an answer. Perhaps, I will never get it. But I want most to be told I’m not nuts. Any help I can get I would appreciate. Thank you for taking the time to read all of

PS I stopped drawing the year this happened and haven't drawn at all since so pardon the sketches please.